collapse

Author Topic: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds  (Read 128895 times)

Online donnaforex

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4288
Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« on: May 29, 2017, 07:13:26 AM »
Warning: This seller has had negative reviews and experiences posted from our members. This topic was very popular but at the time of writing this update they have experienced blown accounts and unhappy customers. Please see the end of the topic for the latest updates and proceed with caution.
-donnaforex, 16th July 2019

This is from one of our more recent new members, outsidethebox, who has a signal service on Signal Start, MQL5 and SimpleTrader:

http://www.signalstart.com/analysis/outside-box-hk/22160

If you have questions for him, leave them here, or share your experiences using his service.

(old locked topic over here: https://donnaforex.com/index.php?topic=19706 )

Info from outsidethebox:

Mount Cook Financial PAMM fund.... http://mtcookfinancial.com/mm-outside-the-box-hk/?partners=70

HotForex PAMM: https://www.hotforex.com/hf/en/landing-pages/pamm-account.html?refid=305098/

Please understand there are advantages, disadvantages, and promotional offers to seize in each method of investing in my overall trade system.  Whether it be with short term Trade Copying returns or with longer term investment method of PAMM fund that I will focus an increasing percentage of my day on as I grow, prove my consistency, and as I learn.
I am rolling out a clear plan that I am communicating to all my subscribers and investors, that involves gradually increasing the price of my signal (dependent upon continued consistent returns), closing my signal in November to new subscribers, and then making it clear that I suggest most move over to SimpleTrader trade copying subscription or to my 2 (soon to be 3) PAMM funds at Mount Cook or HotForex.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 09:04:51 AM by donnaforex »
Follow DonnaForex on Facebook and Twitter.
 
If you need to contact me, email admin@donnaforex.com or Skype 'donnaforex' or PM via the forum.

Offline QuickPipsFX

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 10:24:11 AM »
In the account history I see  two losing positions. A 36.11% loss, and another 18.10% loss. And those were at the same time. Total more than 50% loss. If they would have hit stoploss, it would have been around -85%. 85 percent of the acount gone (I calculated).

During those loss positions also 4 other positions were openen. I don't see any reasonable cut off point for the positions. I think if one or more of the earlier mentioned 4 positions went for a loss, the account could have been at an even bigger loss.

Offline ianj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 11:33:42 AM »
I am with the DD% is not relevant in itself as an indication of how good a strategy is - the DD/Net Profit ratio is what matters - ie HOW LONG does it take to recover from an equity dip (without resorting to heavy "recovery" trading of course - i don't know if that is the case - the risk should be linear over time) . If the max DD is equivalent to, say, 2 weeks net profit then that DD will quickly be left behind. Scaling is different from recovery but it is easy to use scaling to disguise geometric positioning. The main way is to look at NET OPEN position at any given time and see if it is consistent and reasonable

If high DD% is driven to excess you can run out of equity/margin of course but that doesn't make the strategy any less good - it just means it is being traded on too small an account and the leverage/trade sizing should be reduced

The problem with DD% in high tens is that "it happened once and it can easily happen again" and the margin limit is very close - yet it might still be a decent strategy - just overtraded. The "50% is hard to recover" applies if you use proportional trade sizes (ie % based MM) when the trade sizes drop as equity drops

Admittedly my argument works better at 25% DD when the margin has more space. You can recover from a 50% DD very quickly but the risk of blowing up is far higher
« Last Edit: May 29, 2017, 11:44:56 AM by ianj »

Offline forexbaby

  • Private fund trader
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 11:35:32 AM »
In the account history I see  two losing positions. A 36.11% loss, and another 18.10% loss. And those were at the same time. Total more than 50% loss. If they would have hit stoploss, it would have been around -85%. 85 percent of the acount gone (I calculated).

During those loss positions also 4 other positions were openen. I don't see any reasonable cut off point for the positions. I think if one or more of the earlier mentioned 4 positions went for a loss, the account could have been at an even bigger loss.

My problem with this vendor is how does one person recover from 50% DD? 1000 from 500 and you need ONLY have 500 to recover and you cannot use your starting risk anymore as you lost 50%


Offline yshin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 12:03:28 PM »
Hi Greg (outsidetheboxhk),

Just need  a clarification:

In the old locked topic, you mentioned: 3.  I have a soft DD limit of 25% and hard DD limit of 50%.
But in SignalStart's description, you wrote this: Maximum drawdown 30% (was 47%, but now the risk is reduced).

Which one is the correct one? Has the drawdown been reduced?

Thanks.

Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 05:04:01 AM »
In the account history I see  two losing positions. A 36.11% loss, and another 18.10% loss. And those were at the same time. Total more than 50% loss. If they would have hit stoploss, it would have been around -85%. 85 percent of the acount gone (I calculated).

During those loss positions also 4 other positions were openen. I don't see any reasonable cut off point for the positions. I think if one or more of the earlier mentioned 4 positions went for a loss, the account could have been at an even bigger loss.

You are correct regarding the % loss on 2 trades, but do not take into account the scaling in smaller lot trades that reduced my overall DD also were the reason I could work out of this unfortunate DD so quickly.  As another commenter has mentioned, my strategy works with larger account size, which it is doing now quite well, and at the time of those two big losses, my equity in my account was only $2400, a very small account in my perspective.

My goal at that point of my account history was to grow my equity, before I took on any clients or subscribers at all.  I took on 3 private clients once I had proven a 200% return and once I had worked out of a 47% DD quite adeptly.  I have no reason to hide that one DD, it was an error and mis-positioning before 15 March Janet Yellen FOMC speech is all.  I have learnt to not repeat that and many other mistakes in the previous 13 years of trading.

I welcome all criticisms and all comments.  As I have developed my trade strategy thru many storms and much hard work and calculation.  I will ride the gravy train until the trading environment and sentiment change.
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 05:13:16 AM »
I am with the DD% is not relevant in itself as an indication of how good a strategy is - the DD/Net Profit ratio is what matters - ie HOW LONG does it take to recover from an equity dip (without resorting to heavy "recovery" trading of course - i don't know if that is the case - the risk should be linear over time) . If the max DD is equivalent to, say, 2 weeks net profit then that DD will quickly be left behind. Scaling is different from recovery but it is easy to use scaling to disguise geometric positioning. The main way is to look at NET OPEN position at any given time and see if it is consistent and reasonable

If high DD% is driven to excess you can run out of equity/margin of course but that doesn't make the strategy any less good - it just means it is being traded on too small an account and the leverage/trade sizing should be reduced

The problem with DD% in high tens is that "it happened once and it can easily happen again" and the margin limit is very close - yet it might still be a decent strategy - just overtraded. The "50% is hard to recover" applies if you use proportional trade sizes (ie % based MM) when the trade sizes drop as equity drops

Admittedly my argument works better at 25% DD when the margin has more space. You can recover from a 50% DD very quickly but the risk of blowing up is far higher

I agree quite whole heartedly with this knowledgeable and measured assessment.  Good on you for your wisdom and skill.
I have now lessened my risk open at any one time in proportion to my overall equity (40,000 right now) and now I have 5 subscribers on SignalStart and 2 waiting on MQL5, so I have resolved to limit my exposure to a max of 1 core position and up to 5 smaller scale-in positions at any one time with a total max lot exposure of 6 lots.

Now remember, guys, I am a trader first and foremost, mathematician second, and blogger/communicator/educator third.  I will not always have 100% ability or desire to explain my trades, but I will try to be as transparent as possible and as transparent as is wise for my clients and subscribers.
When I say 25-30% max soft DD limit, I leave wiggle room for my discretion to employ some sort of DD recovery tactic and decision-making regarding when it is a good time to exit.
When I say 50% hard DD limit, I will do everything possible to stop the bleeding before this point, and I will be hard at work with my colleagues, associates, partners, and subscribers to determine when to exit "around" the 50% DD line in the sand.  I have seen plenty of excuses and emotional decisions blow up my accounts and others accounts, so I am determined to not repeat this type of behavior now that I have a winning mentality and trade plan.
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 05:22:47 AM »
In the account history I see  two losing positions. A 36.11% loss, and another 18.10% loss. And those were at the same time. Total more than 50% loss. If they would have hit stoploss, it would have been around -85%. 85 percent of the acount gone (I calculated).

During those loss positions also 4 other positions were openen. I don't see any reasonable cut off point for the positions. I think if one or more of the earlier mentioned 4 positions went for a loss, the account could have been at an even bigger loss.

My problem with this vendor is how does one person recover from 50% DD? 1000 from 500 and you need ONLY have 500 to recover and you cannot use your starting risk anymore as you lost 50%

I would love to compare our results and plethora of statistics, our respective careers, and training.
I recovered from a 47% DD in under 2 weeks.  That is because I didn't succumb to fear and I stuck to my original idea when I opened the trades before FOMC speech.  I also take great delight in the fact that if I had left those 2 losing trades on, they eventually would have come back to profit without hiting my stop loss or giving me a margin call.  But I exited after overbought indicators corrected to important correction levels, and went on to win back the lost equity with another trade, and thus adhered to safe DD measures and also worked hard (whatever it takes) to win back the equity with a sound mind and clear plan.

May I also add that a loss isn't completely a loss until you close the trade.  I know what DD means, but a good trader sticks to his original plan until his DD max levels are breached, or until his idea is proven faulty.  I had enough equity to recover, and that is what counts when you have a winning strategy.  After 721% would you be willing to say that my plan is good?  If not, why not?  And how long would it take to sway your opinion?  why or why not?

I am perfecting this system to be scalable with larger equity infusions.  Volume, broker, time of day, and entry point are all the things I'm considering right now.
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Offline ianj

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 06:07:37 AM »
May I also add that a loss isn't completely a loss until you close the trade.  I know what DD means, but a good trader sticks to his original plan until his DD max levels are breached, or until his idea is proven faulty.  I had enough equity to recover, and that is what counts when you have a winning strategy.  After 721% would you be willing to say that my plan is good?  If not, why not?  And how long would it take to sway your opinion?  why or why not?

Hmm ! "Carrying DD" really only means something if it is statistically significant. If The market moves strongly against a position there is an argument for mean reversion to bring it back and thus increase the argument for carrying more risk, or even increasing it) A Z score can be used, for example, to indicate that a win or a loss is likely next. (10 head flips of a coin might indicate a tail next ??) Statistical significance has scope (usually time) which often fades so any advantage in carrying DD degrades to noise over time

It is very easy for it to degrade into "hope" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias and we, as humans, are often ill suited to make that choice. Given our ability to carry bias so strongly i would try to avoid being bull headed - I only wish i could practise what i preach more often :)

One problem  with carrying DD (this applies to martingale, recovery, scaling etc) is that the odds may shift slightly in our favor when we try to "get back", but we carry a far higher risk of being knocked out of the game by pure noise. If the market is 10% noise that is a good bet, but it is not 10% !!

I love arguing both sides of a coin - lol


Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2017, 02:59:58 AM »
Automated Trading vs. Human manual trading

After 14 years I still vote for humans and manually driven trading.
Hundreds of online forex trading brokers support software that will run automated forex trading software, popularly referred to as forex trading robots, or Expert Advisors (EA's).
According to reports over 73% of all US equity trading in 2009 was driven by automatic programs, or algorithms, and over 25% of these trades were on the Foreign Currency Exchange markets. That means that over one-quater of Forex traders are already using automated trading programs to increase their trading profits.

Here are some of the disadvantages of having an automated robot doing your forex trading for you:

1- Downtime A locally operated computer system running a trading robot might crash or lose its Internet connectivity, thereby rendering a robot unable to close a trade unless orders were already entered.
2- Potential for Out of Control Losses Unless proper risk management controls are in place and regular human supervision of the trading robot occurs, an otherwise successful trading robot can quite suddenly rack up a substantial set of losing trades if market conditions become especially unfavorable.
3- Inflexibility Although some exceptions apparently do exist, most trading robots are unable to adapt to changing market conditions. This means that some robots may do especially well in trending markets, while others excel in ranging markets, but neither might trade well in the type of market that it was not designed for.
4- PC Oriented Software Mac users may find that few, if any, forex trading robots have been developed with them in mind. This means that they will probably need to use Windows emulators to run the forex robot software they are interested in, unless they want to take the time to program their own trading algorithms into web based automated trading solutions that some of the top forex brokers might offer.

I stand with the human traders, on behalf of my subscribers and clients. I like working 2 hours some days, and 18 hours other days.
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Offline forexbaby

  • Private fund trader
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2017, 04:36:15 AM »
No matter what, I wish you all the best.


Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2017, 05:00:51 AM »
1 - With $500 usd initial investment your returns will grow 10-30% monthly, and after 1 to 2 years, that is exponentially significant.
2 - I suggest choosing Halifax Investment Services as a broker, since you get best prices and immediate execution of the same trades I am making each day.
3 - I would be willing to walk you thru it over Skype, and that would give us a chance to finally meet too.  I am building a laptop lifestyle to have free time to travel, help causes I believe in, spend time with my kids, and to collaborate on other ventures, helping others with a passive income to achieve their own goals.
4 - Once your broker account is set up, MT4 trading platform downloaded and installed, and funds deposited, then...
5 - Subscribe to SignalStart trade copying feed for $69 per month, and apply it to your MetaTrader platform.
6 - You follow my returns, decisions, and reports on Instagram, TradingView, SignalStart, or MyFXBook daily or weekly to stay up to date on how your investment is growing, the technical tools that I use from day to day, and to get a sneak peek into my every day life.

Your profits will cover your subscription fee easily.
Many of my friends and family are benefiting from this very same setup already as it is a very minimal investment and risk, for such a great probability of growing returns.  I would like to assure you of my credibility about my training and education and experience.....

https://www.instagram.com/outsidetheboxhk/
https://www.tradingview.com/u/OutsideTheBoxHK/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregoryherron/
https://www.myfxbook.com/members/OutsideTheBoxHK/outside-box-hk/2087437
https://www.mql5.com/en/signals/305461
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 10:58:25 AM by outsidetheboxhk »
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Offline outsidetheboxhk

  • PAMM Fund Manager and Trade Copy Provider
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • Learn from your mistakes and do not give up!
    • Signal Start
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2017, 05:04:40 AM »
No matter what, I wish you all the best.

You, too, my brother.
We should connect on social media.  Pls send me DM so we can keep in touch.  I'd like to shoot you my details.
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

SignalStart
SimpleTrader

----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
TRADINGVIEW

Online petermatt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 894
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2017, 08:52:19 AM »
5 - Subscribe to SignalStart trade copying feed for $69 per month, and apply it to your MetaTrader platform.

Unless I am mistaken the actual monthly cost to subscribe to you is USD$69/month + SignalStart Fee USD25/month which in my currency (AUD$) makes it around $126.25/month which is very expensive when compared to most other signals I have ever followed. Do you plan on offering this service through other signal services who don't charge your clients a fee as well as you? With no free 1 month trial to try the signal on low risk and and only a limited history, whilst I'm interested, I am also a bit leery of putting my account and a very high monthly fee at risk.

Pete

Offline forexbaby

  • Private fund trader
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
Re: Outsidethebox (SignalStart)
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2017, 10:08:57 AM »
SignalStart Fee USD25/month?

I thought is just one time fee  8)


 

browse forum

* Recent Posts

Re: Pegasus FX by Pegasus FX
[Today at 10:16:06 PM]


Re: Your education? by Penumbra
[Today at 08:13:16 PM]


Re: Good uk broker? by Penumbra
[Today at 07:57:54 PM]


Re: Good uk broker? by Balanced FX Portfolios
[Today at 07:40:22 PM]


Good uk broker? by vik2001
[Today at 06:57:26 PM]


Re: Archer Asset Management by Archer Asset Management
[Today at 05:40:43 PM]


Re: Daily Job by 2cuteEssence
[Today at 04:02:07 PM]


Re: Commercial EAs are not Smart by SJWkiller
[Today at 04:00:19 PM]


Re: Online payment systems - discuss and exchange. by petersurrey
[Today at 03:08:31 PM]


Re: Online payment systems - discuss and exchange. by vik2001
[Today at 02:51:13 PM]