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Author Topic: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account  (Read 219823 times)

Offline adele

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2011, 05:18:56 PM »
Cheers Adele for informing us about your findings.
I have tried to look around for a decent VPS provider in Singapore but so far I am not that delighted. I reckon we'd need Windows 2003 or preferably 2008. Linux just means too much hassle with MT4 and there are also reliability issues IMHO.
It's such a pity CNS has no datacentre in Singapore, as people seem to be very satisfied with their services.
Have you found any VPS candidates recently?

Rgrds,
Mabel

I did a Google search using 'Singapore' and 'VPS' and found a few options. I will probably choose a VPS provider using Hyper-V with Windows 2003 (and of course the lowest latency) as I feel this is the fastest and most stable. I don't know which one is the best, but if it fits this criteria and has been operating for at least a few years then I think it should be ok. Can't find any cheap ones though.  :P

Will be connecting from my home PC initially (I live in Singapore and have 20ms latency to their data centre) until I make my choice. Will post my selection here (hope the rest of you can do the same).  :)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 05:29:05 PM by adele »

Offline Mabel Wheeler

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2011, 09:11:02 PM »
Hi Adele,

Yes, my findings are the same. VPS providers seem to be quite pricey over there, so I have not decided either, yet. Moreover, since I could not find any unbiased reviews, the most important factor - reliability - can hardly be taken into account.   :-\
Mind you, Win 2008 corresponds to Win7, so I would like to suggest you choosing 2008 to 2003 if your candidate has both. 
I was told that it is much better - more reliable and the problem of accidental double login is also solved with 2008. Sure, Hyper-V is essential.
For the time being I feel that 20 ms latency is not bad at all for you but for obvious reasons a reliable VPS will be needed sooner or later.
I wish you good luck for your VPS hunting and will also post my findings here if I manage to find a decent one.

I would also like to ask those of you have experience with a Singaporean VPS provider to share your thoughts to support our decision making.  :-*

TIA and regards,
Mabel

Offline fpu

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2011, 09:21:13 PM »
Hi all,

I still don't understand why there is some preference to the Pepperstone Singapore data center. For me as a customer it is essential to get a high quality data feed with no remarkable slippage. It doesn't concern me if the data feed is delayed by 300ms or 4 hours if I can trade within this stream. The key to success is a low latency connection to the brokers backoffice and no or very low slippage.

I did not evaluate a VPS in Singapore so far but I don't think this will improve anything. If I am wron don't hesitate to call me an idiot.

Have a nice day,
Falk


Offline Mabel Wheeler

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2011, 09:57:38 PM »
Hi all,

I still don't understand why there is some preference to the Pepperstone Singapore data center. For me as a customer it is essential to get a high quality data feed with no remarkable slippage. It doesn't concern me if the data feed is delayed by 300ms or 4 hours if I can trade within this stream. The key to success is a low latency connection to the brokers backoffice and no or very low slippage.

I did not evaluate a VPS in Singapore so far but I don't think this will improve anything. If I am wron don't hesitate to call me an idiot.

Have a nice day,
Falk

Hi Falk,

No way we wanted to upset you or anyone but the whole Singapore issue is based on the following.

---Quote from Adele's latest chat with Pepper's support ------

When I asked them whether they have more liquidity providers near Sydney or Singapore, their response was as follows:

I would say we have more close to Singapore - As we have many Japanese and Asian banks on our Grid.

---Quote ends ---------

So the idea would be to minimize latency between LPs and Pepper's DC.
Do you think that we miss the point or sound illogical?
Moreover, I am afraid I cannot really follow you. You said that once you can trade within the stream you are not bothered. Sure, if you deal with a market maker it's OK as you just basically try to trade against your own broker inhouse and vice-versa - if the worst comes to worst you get requoted.
Mind you if we regard Pepper as an ECN broker the result of delayed data feed can be massive slippage. This is due to the fact that your order is being transferred to the REAL market by Pepper and does not stay inhouse or on Pepper's server.
I reckon that whole system works on a first come first served basis and others with non-delayed data feed have better chance when competing for the same price.  Otherwise, what is the point in paying commission instead of paying 1 pip higher spread?
Please, do not misunderstand me as I am really interested in your opinion about this.

I am looking forward to your reply & best regards,
Mabel
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 10:32:08 PM by Mabel Wheeler »

Offline fpu

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2011, 10:14:23 PM »
Hi Mabel,

I'm really unsure about my opinion, so need some clarification. Of course there are (some) more liquidity providers near to Singapore, at least more than near to Australia. But I can't imagine how we could minimize the latency between Pepperstones backoffice and the lps (they use Integral) by choosing either the Singapore or the Australian data center. Pepperstone with their Integral Grid have the opportunity to choose for each currency pair how this will be processed. Cite from Integral:

Have a single source for all your multi-bank liquidity and integrate your liquidity directly into your margin FX trading platforms.
- Create pricing that matches your business model and that is unique to your client types.
- Aggregate and configure multiple liquidity sources into price streams for your clients.
- For each currency pair you can:
   - Determine which of your liquidity source's prices to consolidate
   - Choose a method for consolidating your liquidity
   - Specify a spread
   - Create pricing streams for one or more MetaTrader 4 instances
- For each currency pair within an individual price stream you can specify an execution method:
   - Fill or Kill
   - All or Nothing (AON)
   - No Cover (you assume market risk)
   - Keep price improvement or pass along to your clients

My personal experience with Pepperstone so far is that they don't trade against the customers, but nobody knows exactly how their Grid works. In the past I have taken the approach to minimize the latency between my mt4 terminal and Pepperstones backoffice which was a great step forward.

For the final conclusion which VPS location is the best we have to try it out. If I could find a VPS provider in Singapore (connecting to Singapore datacenter) with nearly the same latencies I have in Australia (connecting to Sydney datacenter) I'll let you know the results.

Have a great Evening,
Falk

sry for the ugly English
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 10:16:06 PM by fpu »


Offline Mabel Wheeler

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2011, 11:42:50 PM »
Hi Falk,

Cheers for your input as well as your prompt answer.
 
To make it clear my presumptions were as follows.

- Pepper is a true ECN - or in case of regular account STP - broker who really delivers your order to the real market. Neither dealing desk, nor trade against their clients.
- Pepper has 2 DCs for the time being - in Singapore & Sydney
- According to their support they have more LPs in the Singapore area
- I suppose that data-feed arrives quicker from the LPs' server to Pepper's DC, which is like only a couple of hundred kms away (Singapore) and later to the one that is like 6000 kms away (Sydney). The sooner it arrives to your preferred DC (Singapore) the better chance you have to get filled at your targeted price (thus minimize overall slippage).
If this is true then their Singapore DC should receive data a tiny bit earlier (than the Sydney one) so it should be the quicker one. If that is the case you need a VPS there (as close as it's possible to the Singapore DC, so not US, Japan, Europe or Australia as data needs more time "to travel to arrive")
Sure, I might be easily wrong as it is possible that Pepper synchronized their DCs or found other solutions to overcome this. However, I'm uncertain that they would disclose such information. Still, you never know, might be worth a try to ask them directly.
Sure, the most convenient solution would be for us if they installed a DC here in Europe, especially if you do manual trading (I mean direct market orders and not pending ones here) besides using EAs.
On the other hand we should not forget about the fact that they are an Australian company and also newcomers, so we need to be patient - Rome wasn't built in a day.
Anyway, I should like to emphasize that I cannot say that my presumptions were 100% correct so I might easily be partly or completely wrong.

OK, it's pretty late here, so nighty-night and please get back to here if I am still not clear or you'd like to add something.

Rgrds,
Mabel

Offline adele

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2011, 06:10:58 AM »
For the final conclusion which VPS location is the best we have to try it out. If I could find a VPS provider in Singapore (connecting to Singapore datacenter) with nearly the same latencies I have in Australia (connecting to Sydney datacenter) I'll let you know the results.

I've been doing some research and found 2 so far which have similar latencies to what you have currently:

www.apc.sg - around US$55/month, setup fee currently waived, <=1ms latency
billing.micohosting.com/cart.php?gid=11- around US$58/month , 1ms latency

Not cheap.  :( Both are using Hyper-V with Windows 2008, 512MB RAM, 40GB HDD, 10mbps shared network bandwith, unmetered monthly bandwidth. Will let you know if I find more. If you decide to signup with one, please share your results with us.

I also hope to signup with one of them (probably the first one, as they've been around since 2003) soon.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 06:58:52 AM by adele »

Offline fpu

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2011, 06:30:25 PM »
Dear Adele,

thank you very much for the information, rep added. Of course I let you know of the results once I test them.

Dear Mabel,

A (retail) forex ECN broker does not have a dealing desk but instead provides a marketplace where multiple market makers, banks and traders can enter in competing bids and offers into the platform and have their trades filled by multiple liquidity providers in an anonymous trading environment. The trades are done in the name of your ECN broker. But this not full ECN as it is used by banks or institutional investors. Each (retail) forex ECN broker has to do some aggregation (if he supports microlots)  and filtering, furthermore he has to decide to which lp the order is routed. Sometimes, they even fill the position by themselves (but they don't tell us  8) ) Access to true level 2 market info is also prohibited by most brokers.

Here are some useful links (found at a website of one of the couple of backoffice solution providers for retail brokers):

mt4-to-mt4-bridge made by MetaFX (they also sell the Multi Account Manager used by some brokers): http://metafx-int.com/mt4-to-mt4-bridge/

and a nice video showing the opportunities of retail broker: http://www.metafx-int.com/video/mt4-bridge/demo.html

Back to the original question, I don't know exactly if the latency between retail broker and lps is of any significance, but I prefer to say no, there is no (or little) significance. This question could only be answered if your retail broker offers an in-depth-look in his backoffice or with a sophisticated testing environment.

Have a great Evening and a lot of green pips,
Falk
« Last Edit: June 23, 2011, 06:32:17 PM by fpu »


2good2btrue

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2011, 12:27:39 AM »
Hello everyone
I just want the forum members to know about my very unpleasant experience with Pepperstone's client service.  I just opened a Razor account with them and wanted to fund a small amount to trade an EA separately. I wanted to use debit card funding because international bank wire is not cost effective.  Before credit card funding is allowed one needs to upload a scanned copy of the card.  So last Friday I uploaded a scanned copy of my debit card for their approval but have not heard back from them after a week.  I finally managed to speak to someone via chat and was told that my debit card was reported as fraudulent! If so I would expect that they got back to me and asked for another card but I heard nothing from them. Rather ridiculously during the chat session I was told to send a photo of myself holding the credit card.  I have many accounts with other brokers and never was I asked to do such thing. They made me feel like a criminal , I am extremely unhappy and really regret opening an account with them.

Offline Mabel Wheeler

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2011, 12:14:07 PM »
Dear Adele,

thank you very much for the information, rep added. Of course I let you know of the results once I test them.

Dear Mabel,

A (retail) forex ECN broker does not have a dealing desk but instead provides a marketplace where multiple market makers, banks and traders can enter in competing bids and offers into the platform and have their trades filled by multiple liquidity providers in an anonymous trading environment. The trades are done in the name of your ECN broker. But this not full ECN as it is used by banks or institutional investors. Each (retail) forex ECN broker has to do some aggregation (if he supports microlots)  and filtering, furthermore he has to decide to which lp the order is routed. Sometimes, they even fill the position by themselves (but they don't tell us  8) ) Access to true level 2 market info is also prohibited by most brokers.

Here are some useful links (found at a website of one of the couple of backoffice solution providers for retail brokers):

mt4-to-mt4-bridge made by MetaFX (they also sell the Multi Account Manager used by some brokers): http://metafx-int.com/mt4-to-mt4-bridge/

and a nice video showing the opportunities of retail broker: http://www.metafx-int.com/video/mt4-bridge/demo.html

Back to the original question, I don't know exactly if the latency between retail broker and lps is of any significance, but I prefer to say no, there is no (or little) significance. This question could only be answered if your retail broker offers an in-depth-look in his backoffice or with a sophisticated testing environment.

Have a great Evening and a lot of green pips,
Falk

Hi Falk,

First of all I would like to say thank you for your in-depth post.
In case some kind of aggregation takes place, I have to admit that your reasoning sounds logical, indeed. Sure, I have the feeling that this must be case - as far as I know microlots cannot be traded on the real market - the smallest position is said to be 1 lot. 
To make it even more complicated, I am not 100% sure if their Singapore server is not their secondary server, meaning just another hop for the data. I read it somewhere recently that e.g. there is no point in using an American VPS close to FinFx's US datacentres, as it just serves as an intermediary between the client and their Finnish server - the order is to be executed on the Finnish server anyway. 
Additionally, if we take into account the numerous ways Integral offers as alternatives for their clients (in terms of execution) besides the aforementioned other, legal options available, I am afraid that we can't do anything but give them a try live. There is just simply far too much information should be evaluated we (retail clients) cannot possibly have.
I reckon that I am going for a test-drive first at least for a month (with much smaller positions than I normally use) and see it myself.

Thanks again for your contribution and many green pips to you, too!   :)
Best Regards,
Mabel

Offline adele

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2011, 03:18:06 AM »
Based on their emails, Pepperstone appears to have 2 live data centres, so the scenario for additional latency in the Singapore data centre doesn't apply. Following info from an  earlier exchange last June 1:

(I seem to have deleted the first batch of emails where they informed me that they have 2 live Trading Servers--you can check with Pepperstone on this if you wish to be sure--but here are the subsequent ones. I've simplified the exchanges to Q & A form.)

A: Yes our demo servers are located in the same place as our live servers.

As you live in Singapore connecting to our Singapore data center would be the most convenient and lowest latency. All trades made are actually executed at the live data centre so living in Singapore you are quite fortunate to have a very low latency connection to our Trading Servers.

Q: Will the trades I make while connected to Singapore data center still need to be routed to/from your Australia server (additional latency)?

A: No - The servers in Singapore are fully replicated entities of our Australian Servers - So there would not be any additional latency.


I guess the best way to know for sure is to try it out.

Btw, the Singapore VPS provider I mentioned earlier (APC) offers a 30-day moneyback guarantee so you won't lose anything by trying.  :) (I would do it myself, but I just funded my ThinkForex account and paid for an East Coast US VPS. I've pushed back the date for starting on Pepperstone until I have more funds.)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 03:52:15 AM by adele »

Offline piphunter

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Re: Pepperstone Razor ECN Account
« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2011, 10:51:50 PM »
Does Pepperstone accept US clients?  8)

Update: Just chatted with support and Pepperstone does not service US clients.   :(
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 12:15:20 AM by piphunter »
FXCM - SWVPS - http://asirikuy.com/ GodsGiftATR, Atinalla F3.5

Offline cyberryder

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Pepperstone Razr Account disconnects & Server changes
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2011, 10:36:27 PM »
Hi folks,
i'm running a live Razr account with Pepper and a VPS with Crucial AU. I'm using the commercial tool 4xWatch to monitor Pepper uptime.

Since i started the test 3 days ago, 4xWatch reported some disconnects and server changes to Singapore data center, see attachement.

Anyone of you having the same issues, while maybe using the same tool? Any suggestions on how to fix?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 12:54:12 AM by cyberryder »
@BeeksFX LD5
Read the broker TOS!
Searching for a broker, offering additional fund security in the TOS. None available today: http://www.donnaforex.com/forum/index.php?topic=13785.msg335342#msg335342

Offline cyberryder

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Latency between Pepperstone & LP
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2011, 08:51:23 AM »
Hi Folks,
regarding the latency discussion: As far as i noticed, Pepper is using Integral as LP. Integral uses multiple data centers around the world for it's LP, called "FXGrid", see http://www.integral.com/products/fx_grid.htm. Could not find any information about the data center locations, but if we assume that we will have a data center nearby Integral offices, then it's SINGAPORE and not Sydney! (see http://www.integral.com/about_integral/worldwide_offices.htm)

Would be interesting to have a member testing identical EA setup on live with either VPS in Sydney and Singapore. I understood Falk will try this. However, i don't think that there will be a huge difference with lot sizes below 0.1. As far as i know, this is the min. lot size a broker can send out to the LP. I saw this size on Level2 forex access with a US broker. So i assume, say for 0.01 lots this will mostly be done by internal trade aggregation -> no LP needed -> no latency issue. Am i missing sth.?

TCP port sniffer results:
-------------------------
1) Sydney data center --> connection to 113.192.16.47, location Sydney, based on my IP research, this server is co-located in the "Ultraserve" datacenter Sydney. http://www.ultraserve.com.au/managed-servers/virtual-private-servers

2) Singapore data center --> connection to qala.idc.skynetservers.com is set up --> seems to be some sort relaying with singapore.qala.idc.skynetservers.com, located in GB. Maybe this is the DNS for Singapore data center, however this would be strange.
I also checked IP 112.140.187.236, reported from Ruairi OPleurisy. Based on my research, this server is hosted with SPARC Singapore. Just had a quick look at prices, which seems starting around 48 USD for a 600 MB RAM machine. Seems to be a good offer, what do you think? http://www.sparkstation.net/Windows-VPS-Hosting-Singapore-web-hosting-singapore-103.html.
SPARC is hosting servers within Qala Datacenter Singapore, which also has a Datacenter in GB, which let's me connect the dots to the strange dns above.
Finally i found this text on SPARC website "Geographically diverse located name servers so that your site never fails due to nameservers issue's".

3) I detected a strange IP "74.125.237.49" associated with MT4 instances running Wallstreet Forex Robot. This server is hosted in Germany. Think this could be the validation server for wallstreet, as also their website is running in Germany.

----------------------------------------------
My VPS runs at Crucial, Sydney. Today i set up a new VPS with Sparkstation Singapore.

I did the live test with a new VPS at Sparkstation and I must say woooooow!!! Ping of 0 with only 2 Hops. I think this is nearly unbeatable, see attachement, but unsure, if this will bring any benefit to my trades 8) 8) 8)
@BeeksFX LD5
Read the broker TOS!
Searching for a broker, offering additional fund security in the TOS. None available today: http://www.donnaforex.com/forum/index.php?topic=13785.msg335342#msg335342

Offline adele

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Re: Latency between Pepperstone & LP
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2011, 09:09:23 AM »
Hi Folks,
regarding the latency discussion: As far as i noticed, Pepper is using Integral as LP. Integral uses multiple data centers around the world for it's LP, called "FXGrid", see http://www.integral.com/products/fx_grid.htm. Could not find any information about the data center locations, but if we assume that we will have a data center nearby Integral offices, then it's SINGAPORE and not Sydney! (see http://www.integral.com/about_integral/worldwide_offices.htm)

Would be interesting to have a member testing identical EA setup on live with either VPS in Sydney and Singapore. I understood Falk will try this. However, i don't think that there will be a huge difference with lot sizes below 0.1. As far as i know, this is the min. lot size a broker can send out to the LP. I saw this size on Level2 forex access with a US broker. So i assume, say for 0.01 lots this will mostly be done by internal trade aggregation -> no LP needed -> no latency issue. Am i missing sth.?

TCP port sniffer results:
-------------------------
1) Sydney data center --> connection to 113.192.16.47, location Sydney, based on my IP research, this server is co-located in the "Ultraserve" datacenter Sydney. http://www.ultraserve.com.au/managed-servers/virtual-private-servers

2) Singapore data center --> connection to qala.idc.skynetservers.com is set up --> seems to be some sort relaying with singapore.qala.idc.skynetservers.com, located in GB. Maybe this is the DNS for Singapore data center, however this would be strange.
I also checked IP 112.140.187.236, reported from Ruairi OPleurisy. Based on my research, this server is hosted with SPARC Singapore. Just had a quick look at prices, which seems starting around 48 USD for a 600 MB RAM machine. Seems to be a good offer, what do you think? http://www.sparkstation.net/Windows-VPS-Hosting-Singapore-web-hosting-singapore-103.html.
SPARC is hosting servers within Qala Datacenter Singapore, which also has a Datacenter in GB, which let's me connect the dots to the strange dns above.
Finally i found this text on SPARC website "Geographically diverse located name servers so that your site never fails due to nameservers issue's".

3) I detected a strange IP "74.125.237.49" associated with MT4 instances running Wallstreet Forex Robot. This server is hosted in Germany. Think this could be the validation server for wallstreet, as also their website is running in Germany.

----------------------------------------------
My VPS runs at Crucial, Sydney. Today i set up a new VPS with Sparkstation Singapore.

I did the live test with a new VPS at Sparkstation and I must say woooooow!!! Ping of 0 with only 2 Hops. I think this is nearly unbeatable, see attachement, but unsure, if this will bring any benefit to my trades 8) 8) 8)

Thanks for sharing this information with us! Looking forward to see the result of your trades.  :) Rep added!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 09:11:44 AM by adele »

 

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