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Author Topic: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds  (Read 96596 times)

Offline sidewalk-star

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #270 on: January 04, 2019, 08:18:46 PM »
"there is far less to lose than to gain with a proven strategy over 18 months."

Will there be any compensation for the traders who's accounts have been wiped out as a result of poor trade management on the "High Risk 2" signal? It is going to take months to recover these substantial losses.

Please advise.
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Offline primi

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #271 on: January 04, 2019, 10:00:00 PM »
Unfortunately he doesn't want to be bound by any rules so it's really very difficult to judge what you're really risking. I had a complaint like that before for another account of his. It's really important that we know what we're risking and if he (or anybody else) doesn't want to state it then you just have to assume that it's the whole account unfortunately. Putting it in the description would likely consequently lose him some subscribers but it would also avoid disastrous consequences like yours. Some people are fine with risking a lot, some are not.

We can all trust his judgement and ability to trade and that's probably the reason for subscribing anyway. But risk should ultimately be our choice. We have all the tools at our disposal to adjust risk but we need to know the starting point obviously. If in doubt - assume total wipeout and adjust accordingly. This goes for Outsidethebox and every other vendor out there.

Sorry to hear about your loss. You really got unlucky here it looks like because yesterday he made a lot of money but for some reason you missed that and just got this loss.

Online Phynicle

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #272 on: January 04, 2019, 10:52:17 PM »
Selling multi year lows, not sure what was happening

Offline Tripper

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #273 on: January 04, 2019, 10:56:22 PM »
I subscribe via Simple Trader (using their VPS) with account connected to IC Markets and have had no trades since those closed on 14 December.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

Offline outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #274 on: January 05, 2019, 07:52:09 AM »
I'm annoyed at myself, for signing up to a copy account where the provider was experimenting and 'pushing my skills and strategy to see what I can do'.

Alarm bells were already ringing when I read that post and I should have listened to my gut instinct and pulled the plug this morning, taking a relatively small loss.

You have totally wiped out my last four months of hard earned gains with your High Risk 2 account catastrophe.

What a disastrous start to 2019.

Side Walk Star

"A great idea with the High Risk 2 account, for those feeling a little more adventurous."

This ULTRA high risk strategy was relatively new, and I always advise my clients who want this type of risk to only invest a small amount at first, and then to withdraw profits each month so that they can recuperate their initial investment as quickly as possible.
I invested $800 of my own and built it up to $2300 then it crashed.
This strategy is ok, but I will now tweak the risk a bit lower, as 8x risk does not work as well as the normal "high risk" OTB strategy that is still doing well and compounding profits nicely over a longer period.
I sense your frustration, and of course I am sorry for our loss, but it's not over until you quit.
I'll be back at it next week and can recover that capital quite quickly.  This is the mentality and mental toughness that is required to master the FX arena in each and every way.  The low, medium, and high risk might be better for you.  Have a look at those instead maybe.
You knew the risk and I traded within the bounds of my stated description, so even though I want all my 1500 clients to have profitable months every month, no system is perfect and we just have to do our best by managing our own capital in different ways, not putting all our eggs in one basket, and also managing your own stop loss orders if you feel squeamish or uncertain at any time.
This is one of the advantages of trade copying over other Fund investments, but you have to stay vigilant.
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Offline outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #275 on: January 05, 2019, 08:02:24 AM »
Unfortunately he doesn't want to be bound by any rules so it's really very difficult to judge what you're really risking. I had a complaint like that before for another account of his. It's really important that we know what we're risking and if he (or anybody else) doesn't want to state it then you just have to assume that it's the whole account unfortunately. Putting it in the description would likely consequently lose him some subscribers but it would also avoid disastrous consequences like yours. Some people are fine with risking a lot, some are not.

We can all trust his judgement and ability to trade and that's probably the reason for subscribing anyway. But risk should ultimately be our choice. We have all the tools at our disposal to adjust risk but we need to know the starting point obviously. If in doubt - assume total wipeout and adjust accordingly. This goes for Outsidethebox and every other vendor out there.

Sorry to hear about your loss. You really got unlucky here it looks like because yesterday he made a lot of money but for some reason you missed that and just got this loss.


I am one of the most communicative strategy providers and I have always stated the risks and strategy in the description as you have said.  I even changed my description to include more ** warnings ** as a result of a discussion we had here.
I also know beyond a shadow of a doubt (and this has been proven over and over again with other good traders like Steady Capture and FXViper) that you can do very well for a long long time and then make a big mistake and then that is the time when everyone "views the FX price action in the rearview mirror" and say they knew better, they knew how to trade better, and "how could you do such an irresponsible and stupid" trade or basket of trades?
But the only thing that we can do is learn form our mistakes, get up and try again, and treat others with the respect that we also would want.
There is nothing wrong I did, just need to tweak things.  I only put $800 into the account and I stated ahead of time that I was trying a new strategy and that I was pushing the normal limits a bit.  This is what I will continue to do, put it out publicly for others to critique and invest in, and I'll just keep going no matter what.  I have proven my strategies are consistent and profitable and good, but this one is a work in progress.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 08:08:12 AM by outsidetheboxhk »
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Offline outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #276 on: January 05, 2019, 08:05:13 AM »
I subscribe via Simple Trader (using their VPS) with account connected to IC Markets and have had no trades since those closed on 14 December.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

That signal is closed and stated this here in this forum, at ForexSignals, on SimpleTrader community, and on MyFXBook.

The NEW low risk signal is:    https://www.simpletrader.net/signal/10457/Outside-the-Box-NEW.html
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

DARWINEX
PSYQUATION
HotForex Copy / High Water Mark Performance Fees
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SignalStart
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Offline sidewalk-star

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #277 on: January 05, 2019, 09:07:16 AM »


This ULTRA high risk strategy was relatively new, and I always advise my clients who want this type of risk to only invest a small amount at first, and then to withdraw profits each month so that they can recuperate their initial investment as quickly as possible.
I invested $800 of my own and built it up to $2300 then it crashed.
This strategy is ok, but I will now tweak the risk a bit lower, as 8x risk does not work as well as the normal "high risk" OTB strategy that is still doing well and compounding profits nicely over a longer period.
I sense your frustration, and of course I am sorry for our loss, but it's not over until you quit.
I'll be back at it next week and can recover that capital quite quickly.  This is the mentality and mental toughness that is required to master the FX arena in each and every way.  The low, medium, and high risk might be better for you.  Have a look at those instead maybe.
You knew the risk and I traded within the bounds of my stated description, so even though I want all my 1500 clients to have profitable months every month, no system is perfect and we just have to do our best by managing our own capital in different ways, not putting all our eggs in one basket, and also managing your own stop loss orders if you feel squeamish or uncertain at any time.
This is one of the advantages of trade copying over other Fund investments, but you have to stay vigilant.

Thank you for your reply. This is all very well, however it doesn't explain why you were selling into one of the most bullish signals AUDUSD has given us in years. That was just plain irresponsible and an easy profit could have been made by getting on the 'right' side of the trade.

It's all very well posting consistent profits across your Outside the Box accounts, but you seem to nearly always be trading with a large drawdown, which raises questions regarding the potential risk/reward on these accounts.

I knew this one was high risk but I thought you would at least have some control over the amount of capital we could lose. I  started with just a couple of thousand pounds a few months ago and have traded it up myself to 5.6k. I wanted to use "High Risk 2" for just one month only, to help me grow the account substantially along side my own trades.

I lost 2.5k yesterday, so as you can imagine I am very upset at the moment. I am just glad I decided to copy at x0.5 on the multiplier, otherwise I would have zero account balance now. This catastrophe has undone all my hard work over the past few months - not to mention the additional 77 it cost me in subscription. Not a nice way to start 2019.

I felt sick all evening and didn't sleep well, knowing that all my efforts over the past few months had been destroyed in just 24 hours, by somebody else's actions and my own foolish decision to copy at such high risk. It's a great shame this has happened, because out of all the signal providers you looked to be the most professional and trustworthy. Now, unfortunately, that trust is being tested.

It will take me a long time to recoup these losses, but I'll continue with my own strategy and effectively start over. I was going to switch to your Outside the Box master account in February, where risk is not so much an issue. Now I wonder if I can trust your trading decisions and risk management. I will need to reassess once emotions subside.

I hope you all have a better weekend than mine.

Regards,

Dan.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 09:34:52 AM by sidewalk-star »
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Offline HFT Group

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #278 on: January 05, 2019, 12:29:30 PM »


This ULTRA high risk strategy was relatively new, and I always advise my clients who want this type of risk to only invest a small amount at first, and then to withdraw profits each month so that they can recuperate their initial investment as quickly as possible.
I invested $800 of my own and built it up to $2300 then it crashed.
This strategy is ok, but I will now tweak the risk a bit lower, as 8x risk does not work as well as the normal "high risk" OTB strategy that is still doing well and compounding profits nicely over a longer period.
I sense your frustration, and of course I am sorry for our loss, but it's not over until you quit.
I'll be back at it next week and can recover that capital quite quickly.  This is the mentality and mental toughness that is required to master the FX arena in each and every way.  The low, medium, and high risk might be better for you.  Have a look at those instead maybe.
You knew the risk and I traded within the bounds of my stated description, so even though I want all my 1500 clients to have profitable months every month, no system is perfect and we just have to do our best by managing our own capital in different ways, not putting all our eggs in one basket, and also managing your own stop loss orders if you feel squeamish or uncertain at any time.
This is one of the advantages of trade copying over other Fund investments, but you have to stay vigilant.

Thank you for your reply. This is all very well, however it doesn't explain why you were selling into one of the most bullish signals AUDUSD has given us in years. That was just plain irresponsible and an easy profit could have been made by getting on the 'right' side of the trade.

It's all very well posting consistent profits across your Outside the Box accounts, but you seem to nearly always be trading with a large drawdown, which raises questions regarding the potential risk/reward on these accounts.

I knew this one was high risk but I thought you would at least have some control over the amount of capital we could lose. I  started with just a couple of thousand pounds a few months ago and have traded it up myself to 5.6k. I wanted to use "High Risk 2" for just one month only, to help me grow the account substantially along side my own trades.

I lost 2.5k yesterday, so as you can imagine I am very upset at the moment. I am just glad I decided to copy at x0.5 on the multiplier, otherwise I would have zero account balance now. This catastrophe has undone all my hard work over the past few months - not to mention the additional 77 it cost me in subscription. Not a nice way to start 2019.

I felt sick all evening and didn't sleep well, knowing that all my efforts over the past few months had been destroyed in just 24 hours, by somebody else's actions and my own foolish decision to copy at such high risk. It's a great shame this has happened, because out of all the signal providers you looked to be the most professional and trustworthy. Now, unfortunately, that trust is being tested.

It will take me a long time to recoup these losses, but I'll continue with my own strategy and effectively start over. I was going to switch to your Outside the Box master account in February, where risk is not so much an issue. Now I wonder if I can trust your trading decisions and risk management. I will need to reassess once emotions subside.

I hope you all have a better weekend than mine.

Regards,

Dan.

If you traded 'a couple of thousand pounds' up to 5.6K in a couple of months you were doing well and should have stuck with it!

Don't trade funds you cannot afford to lose.

If you can't take the heat then stay away from the fire.

Online reinerh

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #279 on: January 05, 2019, 02:41:23 PM »

dan,

if you doubled you account with your own trading, then why the heck do you look elsewhere.

trading your own funds then its totally up to you, take responsibility man.

Offline outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #280 on: January 06, 2019, 05:24:53 AM »
@side-walk star / Dan / and others

I know that sick feeling for sure.
Go back and look at my other drawdowns and mistakes, they have been well documented and recovered from.
Sometimes they don't take as long as you might think to recover from.  It is the resilience and positive outlook and balanced perspective that is most important to keep going after learning tough lessons like this one.

Also keep in mind that I had just booked a stellar 169 pip trade on AUDUSD during the flash crash AND.....
Many accounts of retail traders and fund managers had just been either blown or majorly damanaged by margin calls at the time of the flash crash only just 24 hours before I set this current trade.  They lost much bigger accounts on their main accounts at low risk and brokers have told me that many people are in trouble as a result of that day.

The significant challenge with forex (and most all types of trading) is that you don't know when the next BIG geopolitical event or Central Bank event will affect your open trades, and even setting stop loss orders sometimes does not insulate you from much higher losses than you had set in advance.

I wouldn't immediately say that trust is broken, as I made all the right disclaimers ahead of time.
This was more a matter of taking too much risk (on my part and on your part) at a time when AUDUSD had broken major support levels and had a high probability of respecting those levels of support-turning-resistance on a re-test.
Oftentimes, once there is this much pessimism in a currency pair and related risk assets (equities) these strong trends will continue.
You cannot look backwards and claim that you knew your technical analysis would have been more productive, as this is mere speculation and conjecture.  It is best to take responsibility as soon as possible and get right back into the arena again and learn the tough lessons that this situation brings with it.

All of this is part of determining what risk to take, and then be happy with the profits when they come a majority of the time, and then also deal with the losses when they come not so frequently as you can see with all my other strategies.
I was taking more risk with this new strategy because I am testing it LIVE, which is the only real way to know how something is responding to real market forces and your own judgment / skill.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:35:57 AM by outsidetheboxhk »
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Offline sidewalk-star

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #281 on: January 06, 2019, 09:55:23 AM »


If you traded 'a couple of thousand pounds' up to 5.6K in a couple of months you were doing well and should have stuck with it!

Don't trade funds you cannot afford to lose.

If you can't take the heat then stay away from the fire.

With regard to your comment, yes I traded couple of thousand up to 5.6K, but it was over the course of four months (in my original comment I stated a few months, not a couple). And I will continue to use my own strategies going forward, as mentioned.

The reason I signed up to copy Outside the Box High Risk 2 was to assist in getting this new account up to a decent size in a shorter time frame than I had originally planned, and obviously this has backfired on me.

I kick myself because I am not an inexperienced trader, I have been doing this a few years. If something looks too good to be true then it probably is... and in this case I totally went against my usual money management rules and paid the price. An expensive lesson learned.

With regard to not trading funds that you can lose, I acknowledge there will always be risk in trading forex but everyone needs to build up their accounts to a substantial level before they can start drawing regular income, there should NEVER be the risk of losing ALL your funds on any one particular trade or basket of trades. What happened here with Outside the Box High Risk 2 was a total disregard to risk and money management.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 12:15:32 PM by sidewalk-star »
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Offline sidewalk-star

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #282 on: January 06, 2019, 10:47:57 AM »
@side-walk star / Dan / and others

I know that sick feeling for sure.
Go back and look at my other drawdowns and mistakes, they have been well documented and recovered from.
Sometimes they don't take as long as you might think to recover from.  It is the resilience and positive outlook and balanced perspective that is most important to keep going after learning tough lessons like this one.

Also keep in mind that I had just booked a stellar 169 pip trade on AUDUSD during the flash crash AND.....
Many accounts of retail traders and fund managers had just been either blown or majorly damanaged by margin calls at the time of the flash crash only just 24 hours before I set this current trade.  They lost much bigger accounts on their main accounts at low risk and brokers have told me that many people are in trouble as a result of that day.

The significant challenge with forex (and most all types of trading) is that you don't know when the next BIG geopolitical event or Central Bank event will affect your open trades, and even setting stop loss orders sometimes does not insulate you from much higher losses than you had set in advance.

I wouldn't immediately say that trust is broken, as I made all the right disclaimers ahead of time.
This was more a matter of taking too much risk (on my part and on your part) at a time when AUDUSD had broken major support levels and had a high probability of respecting those levels of support-turning-resistance on a re-test.
Oftentimes, once there is this much pessimism in a currency pair and related risk assets (equities) these strong trends will continue.
You cannot look backwards and claim that you knew your technical analysis would have been more productive, as this is mere speculation and conjecture.  It is best to take responsibility as soon as possible and get right back into the arena again and learn the tough lessons that this situation brings with it.

All of this is part of determining what risk to take, and then be happy with the profits when they come a majority of the time, and then also deal with the losses when they come not so frequently as you can see with all my other strategies.
I was taking more risk with this new strategy because I am testing it LIVE, which is the only real way to know how something is responding to real market forces and your own judgment / skill.

You may know that sick feeling, Gregory. But at least you have made plenty of money from the subscribers, whereas we've all lost a significant amount of our capital in exchange for the $99 per month investment.  ???

All I will say is that it seemed fairly certain to me that AUDUSD price would continue upward from where your original and  large sell order was placed. With the daily chart printing the mother of all bullish pin bars at multi-year lows it was obvious a large amount of stop loss orders had been taken out and that the upward momentum would likely follow through.

A pin bar of this magnitude at a major demand zone is technical analysis 101, basic stuff in my view. To think that price would then break below support and retest it as new resistance is retail trader thinking, something banks and institutions rely upon for liquidity, as was demonstrated here. This was a multi-year low major demand zone. Price was not going down further at this stage.

Sure, price may yet come back down to retest the area and produce a 'double-bottom' or even attempt to put in a new low in the coming weeks. However, this particular move was ill-judged in my opinion and to keep adding to your losing position instead of switching to the buy side of the trade seemed to just dig us deeper into a hole (and eventually blow up the account). I personally do not think it is hindsight saying this could have been avoided. I'm sure some will disagree.

I acknowledge you have recovered from previous drawdowns and that you have a good track record with your trading, which is impressive. However, one must be able to quickly change their strategy when the original trade setup is no longer valid and you didn't demonstrate your ability to do this, you kept adding more sell orders hoping for the best and compounding the damage. Not only that, the decreasing lot sizes were going to have very little impact in helping to recover the position. Cutting losses at this point may have been the best bet. Not something any of us like to do but very occasionally a necessary evil.

Being that it was still the first week of trading after the holiday period, with relatively low volume... AND also NFP week, keeping risk at a minimum should have been at the forefront of every traders mind (myself included). I guess we all couldn't wait to jump back in after the Christmas break.  ::)

I personally would add a note on the High Risk 2 description, clearly stating that this is an experimental live account. People are so used to reading "Don't use funds you cannot afford to lose" in forex trading, this warning goes largely ignored. I hold my hands up and admit I made a mistake connecting 'real money' to this signal but then I didn't expect the account to blow-up within just 24 hours. Very bad timing and risk management on my part.

If my personal trading continues to yield good results, I may well start offering my own signal towards the end of 2019. Early testing is producing steady and consistent results, with good risk management also. At some point I would like to offer a managed account but not until I have 24 months proven track record. Watch this space.

Anyway, this has been a disaster and I don't think there's much more I can add to this thread but here's to us all turning a decent profit in 2019 and best of luck going forward with your Outside the Box signals.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:25:35 PM by sidewalk-star »
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Offline outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #283 on: January 07, 2019, 01:16:41 AM »
Outside the Box --- December 2018 Performance
  • December monthly Profit Return in PIPS -- 435
  • December monthly Profit Return in PERCENT (low risk) -- 4.07%
  • December monthly Profit Return in PERCENT (medium risk) -- 7.96%
  • December monthly Profit Return in PERCENT (high risk) -- 11.46%


The Max Drawdown
has now been improved so that both PIP HUNTERS and also PROFIT % HUNTERS will be more interested in this strategy

  • Max Drawdown (peak to trough) last 8 months -- 11% OR 800 pips
    Total Profit % last 8 months -- 108% or 3970 pips
  • Max Drawdown (peak to trough) last 22 months -- 25% OR 1000 pips
    Total Profit % last 22 months -- 2240% OR 6700 pips


Over and over again, what is proven to me to be the most important, is to shake off momentary losses so that miserable experience can teach me what to avoid in the future so that my strategy can reach higher levels of Capital --- this has always been my focus, and I have had to endure much criticism and failure to get this far.  That is why I have chosen to be more active on social FX trading forums and platforms, so that I could document my journey and now no one can make false claims about my history, because I can then refer them back to numerous occasions in the past regarding:

  • verified track record of statistics on trading performance
  • how I manage client issues
  • how I manage drawdown periods
  • how I communicate my risk management / trade plan
  • how well I can adhere to these stated plans
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 01:30:55 AM by outsidetheboxhk »
--------------------------------------------------
Copy or Invest in my Strategy

DARWINEX
PSYQUATION
HotForex Copy / High Water Mark Performance Fees
Mt Cook Financial PAMM
HotForex PAMM
ZuluTrade (2 compensation models)

SignalStart
SimpleTrader
MQL5 Zero Spread
----------------------------------------------------
Follow Outside the Box HK on

Instagram
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Online groper

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #284 on: January 11, 2019, 07:03:48 AM »


Over and over again, what is proven to me to be the most important, is to shake off momentary losses so that miserable experience can teach me what to avoid in the future so that my strategy can reach higher levels of Capital --- this has always been my focus, and I have had to endure much criticism and failure to get this far.  That is why I have chosen to be more active on social FX trading forums and platforms, so that I could document my journey and now no one can make false claims about my history, because I can then refer them back to numerous occasions in the past regarding:

  • verified track record of statistics on trading performance
  • how I manage client issues
  • how I manage drawdown periods
  • how I communicate my risk management / trade plan
  • how well I can adhere to these stated plans

Greg - i felt obliged to come here and say my peice as i am affected by your signal thru another trade following platform. I would like to echo Dan`s sentiments exactly. You should have known better than to Sell at multiyear lows after a flash crash filled the market with liquidity after taking out all of the shorts. You keep stating your a maths professor - well its not all maths mate - theres plenty of important stuff you need to consider in order to be a responsible trader that has the right to make income from trading other peoples money. Its not your risk afterall - well very little.

You have not adhered to your plan - you have moved the stop loss higher and higher over the last several days and you keep opening more shorts which are adding to the loosing positions. Any fool with a grid or martingale EA can trade in a similar manner. But what you are doing is lunacy! Youve already lost investors over $57,000 on zulu trade and still have 700pips in drawdown. When these stop out, the damage will be enormous. You initally stated that your SL would be around 125-140pips - now its gone -200 pips and you move it again! You did not communicate this in your risk manaagement communications - you keep moving the goal posts and try to justify it with all sorts of reasons - but can you listen to yourself?

This basket has wiped out 2 months of hard work from my trading. The losses should have half of what they were if you stuck to the plan and communicated the fact that you like to move stops higher and higher - i probably would have never followed your signal in the first place if you had been completely up front about this behavior.

So i hope that you do learn from this - the 5 points you noted above - your still not fulfilling all of them very well at all and i dont think your ready to manage other peoples money...

 

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