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Author Topic: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds  (Read 79987 times)

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #285 on: January 11, 2019, 10:31:01 AM »
Wiping out two months of trading is not so bad for a heavy unprecedented drawdawn. That's really fine in the forex world.

Those who stick to every single detail in their trading rules are the ones who can't adapt to market changes.

@outoftgebox, I suggest you don't bother with comments on your trading and just focus on your trading.

Offline groper

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #286 on: January 11, 2019, 11:14:41 AM »
And The damage keeps getting worse...
investor profit now -$94k on zulutrade alone. This 1 bad basket that you wont let go of... And you have once again moved your stops out yet again!

You have already exceeded the max risk profile you explained to your investors - why do you ignore your plan?

Another risky behavior that got you into this mess is that you attempted to take some more short scalps along the way - when these went into the red you held all of those too and keep compounding your losses! now youve exceeded you highest ever drawdown and are you even looking at the candles? do you even know what price action is? green candle, after green candle, after green candle on H1 H4 D1 etc etc yet you keep adding shorts???? There is absolutely no sign of price action indicating a reversal.


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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #287 on: January 11, 2019, 11:51:39 AM »
Wiping out two months of trading is not so bad for a heavy unprecedented drawdawn. That's really fine in the forex world.

Those who stick to every single detail in their trading rules are the ones who can't adapt to market changes.

@outoftgebox, I suggest you don't bother with comments on your trading and just focus on your trading.

@Megabot Team Watching your comments very closely. A little respect when posting on other Vendors' threads is warranted. You were warned previously on Forex Manager thread.

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #288 on: January 11, 2019, 01:04:51 PM »
Wiping out two months of trading is not so bad for a heavy unprecedented drawdawn. That's really fine in the forex world.

Those who stick to every single detail in their trading rules are the ones who can't adapt to market changes.

@outoftgebox, I suggest you don't bother with comments on your trading and just focus on your trading.

@Megabot Team Watching your comments very closely. A little respect when posting on other Vendors' threads is warranted. You were warned previously on Forex Manager thread.
Nothing disrespectful here in my comment

Just because you lost money and become too irritated does not grant you the power threaten other people.

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #289 on: January 11, 2019, 01:40:55 PM »
Wiping out two months of trading is not so bad for a heavy unprecedented drawdawn. That's really fine in the forex world.

Those who stick to every single detail in their trading rules are the ones who can't adapt to market changes.

@outoftgebox, I suggest you don't bother with comments on your trading and just focus on your trading.

@Megabot Team Watching your comments very closely. A little respect when posting on other Vendors' threads is warranted. You were warned previously on Forex Manager thread.
Nothing disrespectful here in my comment

Just because you lost money and become too irritated does not grant you the power threaten other people.

It wasn't a threat, it was a friendly warning. You seem to take liberties in fellow members threads. It is his thread and you are telling him not to post comments. I see that as disrespectful. Where did i say I lost money? I do not trade this strategy FYI.

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #290 on: January 11, 2019, 02:20:25 PM »
What are you talking about?!!!

I was defending him in my comment.
And I suggested that he focus on his trading rather than paying attention to what emotional investors have to say about him. I can't see anything wrong with that.

FYI, I Am not a vendor

Offline jwatts7701

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #291 on: January 11, 2019, 03:46:46 PM »
Guys it seems easy for everyone to just say in hindsight "it was obvious to not do this, at this time". When you look back. If that was the case, why did you not close your trade? The reason he is doing it when you aren't, is because he is not trading the same way you would.

If you think your way is better, then you are obviously way better off doing it your own way. But ask yourself, how often will you be right vs this guy? It seems to me that otbhk gets it right most of the time, and recovers when he doesn't.

No one posts on his thread here on the winning days to say "I would not have done what you did there, but you were right and made money, so thanks!". Of course people only will post these comments when there is a loss. In a loss everyone seems to knows better. Never on profitable trades though. Out of the manual traders I know or see, I don't see any ones better here to be fair (with more proof in a track record).




Offline 5ninefish

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #292 on: January 11, 2019, 05:20:50 PM »
If you're not comfortable with this signal, turn down the risk until you are. Look at his myfxbook this past year. My results mirror his exactly. He doesn't trade like I would, but that's why I subscribe to his signal. His manual trading is better than mine. NOTHING I have (EA's, signals, systems, etc) has had this kind of result over the last year. Look at his history, see how he trades, and make your decision based on that. I tried to microanalyze his style and got myself all worked up over his system in the beginning, and I nearly walked away from it. Then I just let it run and had a great year.

Offline groper

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #293 on: January 11, 2019, 09:58:24 PM »
If you're not comfortable with this signal, turn down the risk until you are. Look at his myfxbook this past year. My results mirror his exactly. He doesn't trade like I would, but that's why I subscribe to his signal. His manual trading is better than mine. NOTHING I have (EA's, signals, systems, etc) has had this kind of result over the last year. Look at his history, see how he trades, and make your decision based on that. I tried to microanalyze his style and got myself all worked up over his system in the beginning, and I nearly walked away from it. Then I just let it run and had a great year.

To reiterate - its not about the loss - which i stopped at a modest level and was following at a small risk because i was new to his signal and didnt trust it yet - Someone claiming 15years FX experience but only showing 22months on myfxbook didnt add up so i was cautious.

Its about his behavior or "style" as you put it. He has not stuck to his plan, has repeatedly moved stops on this basket from an initial -125pips to over `-250pips, and keeps adding more risk to losing positions after he explicity says in his strategy description "after -125pips my losers have a low probability of returning into profit". This all points to someone who is getting sloppy or losing control but not following their plan or strategy. In the process of all this he blew up his high risk account and anyone folowing that such as Dan above.

SO whilst you had a good year for the last year - doesnt mean you will survive the next year... especially with this kind of behavior showing.

I wish you the best of luck, but urge you to exercise extreme caution going forward due to the nature of how these signal accounts reward their providers.
That is - once a signal provider has a large following and they are generating significant income from opening positions- they can get sloppy as it doesnt matter if their performance drops - they keep making money whilst they are executing trades and the followers are there which makes them look good. So they start living the high life and get complacent.... Complacency leads to sloppiness, and accounts start to blow up. All it takes is 1 or 2 big mistakes, and investors are hung out to dry. Ive seen this many times on trade following platforms. Be careful.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 10:04:31 PM by groper »

Online outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #294 on: January 12, 2019, 09:47:05 AM »
And The damage keeps getting worse...
investor profit now -$94k on zulutrade alone. This 1 bad basket that you wont let go of... And you have once again moved your stops out yet again!

Its about his behavior or "style" as you put it. He has not stuck to his plan, has repeatedly moved stops on this basket from an initial -125pips to over `-250pips, and keeps adding more risk to losing positions after he explicity says in his strategy description "after -125pips my losers have a low probability of returning into profit". This all points to someone who is getting sloppy or losing control but not following their plan or strategy.

1. @grouper
Recently I changed the way I have learned to trade by setting stop loss orders on my trades 24/7.
This was because one platform gives me a lower trading score if I do not utilise SL orders.  Even when I know many other traders at top institutions and investment firms do not use them -- only on rare instances.
This then backfired on me this week on the overnight "quiet hour" of low liquidity that many Liquidity Providers experience between 4:45 pm and 5:15 especially.  The quote for AUDUSD widened by 35 pips at our LP, and the ask price hit the stop loss on one of my positions.  This cannot be avoided unless you set stop losses very far from the current price, which then changes the risk/reward and statistics of my trade entries and frequency of finding those entries.  So now once again I have taken SL's off for more than this reason.
The main reason I do not trade with SL is because I must see the Corrrelated Cross Asset Patterns, the price action around a certain level (the velocity and volume of the price action movement). and whether stop losses had been hunted at the time where I know in my head the price is nearing where I would either like to hedge or to partially close a position.  Until you have watched price action for 10 to 15 years you might not have this type of familiarity with how these things repeat themselves


2. @grouper
You are right.  The MFE/MAE on my trade history metrics point to the 125 to 150 pip area as the place I should re-consider my original trade idea for a particular setup.  It is a consideration, not a command though.  You must also consider what time it is, what deception tactics have been employed in the current session, and how other correlated assets like Gold, EURUSD, DAX, US30, xxxJPY, and cross pairs such as AUDNZD and EURAUD are behaving at that particular time. 
This skill is not able to be written into code or law or rule.
This skill is not able to be automated.
The skill is better employed by a seasoned trader with a human mind, but the drawback is that this type of style presents challenges when you have to explain it to people who want to micro-analyze your day to day trading.
FX Viper said this.  And eventually it drove him away from provision of trade copy strategies to small investors.


Many days in the past 22 months (and beforehand when I was trading off the record with smaller more experimental accounts) I have reflected about how to best approach the FX markets with an edge, with proper risk management, and with the right mindset and attitude.
Some days I just don't have time to respond (nor should I) to the multiplicity of "immediate" concerns even though I would like to do so.  I have answers and if you look back I have been very open and prompt with my responses all throughout other drawdown periods even when people have chosen to take a counterproductive, aggressive, and blaming position in a public forum where I have put myself out there under the spotlight of scrutiny.

I sit back and chat with other traders who've already travelled this path I am currently on.  We talk about how to best handle our trading, analysis, keeping up on important ever-changing news events, data releases, managing risk --- at the same time as attending to our daily family responsibilites, chores, and unexpected sickness, loss, and problems in our own personal lives.

The wisdom I have learnt is this:

1 - Until I had proven that I could be consistently profitable in my own trading, I really should not critique or bring shame on another trader without being tactful and polite.  Considering what the effects of my public words would be on people involved other than myself.  It takes humility, patience, and hard work.

2 - My strategy is not set in stone. I have covered this here before and have taken my share of accusations, only to keep profiting and keep recovering from the inevitable drawdowns.  The is why I chose the name "Outside the Box", because I saw that the chaotic and not-easily-predictable Forex Market had brought me more loss and failure for me personally if I approached it this way. Instead I have set down "usual" guidelines that help direct me in my thinking and these I have shared with others so they can at least begin to understand what I think and what I do.
** When my dad is driving, I sometimes wish I could be driving myself, but I know in the end it is pointless to claim that I have a better understanding and competence than someone who has driven quite successfully for many more years than I have.  If I would like to drive, then I must buy my own car, take care of it, and drive for myself.
** My ex-wife also did not agree with my way of living and the goals I wanted to value and prioritise.  Sadly this meant to her that we must separate and not collaborate or share life together anymore.  Regardless of how much I wanted to continue collaborating.

3 - What is most important is OVERALL RISK.  Taken as a percentage of average profit of my system over a longer period.  My drawdown sits at about 5% after having booked 2% profit this month already.  This is acceptable to me especially when my systems have all proven that they consistently make 5% per month -- with medium risk and high risk 2x and 4x those figures.  And YES EVEN WHEN I "VIOLATE" my own rules.  You say "what?? you are crazy!"  Well then why has it made me exceptional returns and interested high net worth individuals and institutions after a two year period? There are guidelines, not rules.  If you want linear rules, with no flex or soft edges, then you may want to trade for yourself and please show me your track record over a 2 year period when you get there.

4 - Humility and vulnerability.  I have accepted my "failures" as steps towards overall success.  I am not perfect, but in Forex that doesn't matter.  As long as you make your successes longer and a more powerful compounding force than the tough times and the learning times.

5 - Keep going.  No matter what.  Find the inner strength to insulate yourself from what others say or do but instead do not be driven or manipulated by them.  Live your life and accept the results that come from your own thinking and heart.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 10:12:22 AM by outsidetheboxhk »
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Offline groper

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #295 on: January 14, 2019, 10:11:35 AM »

FX Viper said this.  And eventually it drove him away from provision of trade copy strategies to small investors.


Its interesting and very fitting that you draw correlation between yourself and FX Viper - now look at what has happened to him. You will follow in his footsteps unless you change your attitude towards trading - this was the entire point of me coming here and saying my piece.

What you are doing in the way you are trading is very risky - 22 months of history does not mean your a professional guru or that your not bankrupt next year taking everyone with you, like so many others before you. You take scalps for 9 pips avg profit then let bad trades run  more than 250pips into the red, holding and praying. Its a recipe for disaster. Its only a matter of time until one day you will be left with a basket of 9 trades and -600 pips per position with no way out as the macroeconomic momentum has already shifted for the next long term trend lasting many years. Sure you could hold them long term - but now the investors margin is completely tied up for any additional trading and the accounts are either frozen by the drawdown or hit MC. Funds are unable to be withdrawn without accepting the huge unrealised PnL. But hey - you still got your 92% win rate right?

Now if you were trading like this for yourself privately- then hey - thats your business and people should be able to do as they please! No worries at all.

But when your trading other peoples money, making money off other peoples  risk - you should assume a duty of care to trade responsibly and not allow your positions to end up in a place like that... i simply want you to acknowledge this moving forward.

Online outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #296 on: January 14, 2019, 01:06:07 PM »

Its interesting and very fitting that you draw correlation between yourself and FX Viper - now look at what has happened to him. You will follow in his footsteps unless you change your attitude towards trading - this was the entire point of me coming here and saying my piece.

What you are doing in the way you are trading is very risky - 22 months of history does not mean your a professional guru or that your not bankrupt next year taking everyone with you, like so many others before you. You take scalps for 9 pips avg profit then let bad trades run  more than 250pips into the red, holding and praying. Its a recipe for disaster. Its only a matter of time until one day you will be left with a basket of 9 trades and -600 pips per position with no way out as the macroeconomic momentum has already shifted for the next long term trend lasting many years. Sure you could hold them long term - but now the investors margin is completely tied up for any additional trading and the accounts are either frozen by the drawdown or hit MC. Funds are unable to be withdrawn without accepting the huge unrealised PnL. But hey - you still got your 92% win rate right?

Now if you were trading like this for yourself privately- then hey - thats your business and people should be able to do as they please! No worries at all.

But when your trading other peoples money, making money off other peoples  risk - you should assume a duty of care to trade responsibly and not allow your positions to end up in a place like that... i simply want you to acknowledge this moving forward.

I was referring to FX Viper only to say that he also was annoyed with the time he had to take writing updates to subs when it really isn't productive.  I did not compare myself to him.
And besides, he manages quite a big fund with his trading company, and he made very good money from trade copying and PAMM/MAM too.  What is wrong with that?  I see his drawdown, and yes I do not agree with that.  But then again, look at my Pip Drawdown chart on myfxbook and it is nowhere near the numbers he has.
Your words here draw conclusions that are not completely accurate.
FX is very sensitive to analysis of data, backtesting a strategy, and performance metrics.

Look back at my track record.
The drawdown percentages have gradually diminished, not gone upwards.  Pips have very little to do with overall profitability.  they only matter when trade copiers want to copy your trading with no regard for the historical Risk Management performance and MFE/MAE.  If copiers use up all their available margin then they were the ones who either have much lower leverage or they added other trades or increased the risk.  This is not my problem at all.

Believe me I am very attentive to what needs my attention.  And to be honest, I only respond to people like you to correct your mistakes of thinking here on a public forum. 
Bankrupt?  What can of loser thinking is that really?  Speak those words over yourself, I certainly don't accept that.
Those 250 pip negative trades, how many of them are there?  Out of 1100 trades?  This is the point!!
Don't you understand the mathematics??
If you win 94% of your trades at 10 pips average per winning trade, you can afford to lose 1 or 2% at 150 to 200 pips, yes.  The other losing trades are for less pips.  This is a winning strategy, just look at the low risk, medium risk, and high risk track records.
And again, if you are so knowledgeable and skillful as a trader, then pls show your track record.
It is this simple.
And I have won many happy subs and investors, so just because you are disgruntled does not mean there are significant numbers of others who have copied my strategy for longer than 3 months who are disgruntled too.
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Offline jwatts7701

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #297 on: January 14, 2019, 05:20:14 PM »
So it looks like hes up 2% with -5% floating drawdown. So down -3% overall equity. That seems hardly anything to be worried about for what you get on the profit side and how often. Investors should be prepared for a lot worse than that really unless you reduce the risk.

Groper it is quite clear that his trading style would be classified as "scalping".

This generally means tight TPs and wide SLs. This is pretty well known. You make it sound like this is somehow a surprise? lolol.  :P

If it is not your cup of tea, the better option would be to not participate and find something that is better suited to your taste (maybe something with tight stops and wide tps - basically the opposite to scalping). Instead of trying to turn this style in to something that it is not. You either accept their style (and the risks associated with it) or look for another one. No point in trying to have the trader morph his style in to YOUR style. Otherwise he would be trying to do this for everyone and everyone has a different way of doing it.

Having watched a few manual traders come and go over the years (like viper) it is usually the ego that ends up getting them in trouble and bickering with investors who want trading to go "their way". The trader then gets a persona that they need to maintain in public and that can have some bad consequences. I hope that doesn't unfold here.

Also just keep in mind that this is a manual strategy. There are no hard rules like an EA. Generally this is why I don't like manual traders. This isn't my preferred style either.  But I understand what it is. And accept that. It seems that there are a few people who when given the flexibility to do their own unique thing seem to be able to consistently make money.

Bottom line is this I guess. This is clearly a manual (no firm rules like an EA, it is more reactive), scalping (small tps and wide SLs) strategy.

Accept it for what it is, and the risks associated with that. Most of us understand these. Stop trying to pretend it is something else, or mold it in to something it is not. If in doing so you are comfortable with the risk, then it may be for you. If not, thankfully we live in a world with more than one option!

Online Nasdaq100

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #298 on: January 14, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
This trader did in fact have much deeper drawdowns in the past where he has recovered. Moreover, just because he is having a drawdown now on YOUR account, does not mean that you should show up on public forums and bash him!

Online outsidetheboxhk

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Re: Outsidethebox HK Signals & PAMM funds
« Reply #299 on: January 14, 2019, 11:43:57 PM »
Moreover, just because he is having a drawdown now on YOUR account, does not mean that you should show up on public forums and bash him!

This is by far the worst thing about being a strategy provider online in a public way.
This year I hope I can go incognito and totally private, but for now I still have to bear those who are too emotional, too focused on the short term, and not focused enough on the larger picture and what a system achieves over 6 months to a year.
Just like with professional portfolio managers.
They would be stoked to grow their clients funds annually at the growth percentage of my three trade copying strategies.
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PSYQUATION
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